keegan a con sketches definitely don't count, because those aren't really a good representation of the artists work and weren't purchased. These would be different than sketches. about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v I really don't understand that reasoning for why a con sketch wouldn't count. I don't know what having been purchased has to do with anything. I understand a Munny doodle not counting but a sketch in a sketch pad, why not? Art by an artist's hand is absolutely representative of the artist. They did it! It may not be on the same quality level as a painting they worked on for 60 hours but it is still their art. about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v For example, what really is the difference between a sketch in a sketch book you gathered at SDCC vs a drawing you commissioned by that same artist? Only the money changing hands. The Looper sketch I have by Gary Ham was drawn at a con and I didn't pay for it but I don't see why that doesn't count as a piece of his art. about 11 years ago

benpierce25 v Matt, you may cherish that Gary's Wooper is awesome in that he did it in 5 minutes and did it well. But the question is, would the artist who drew that consider it a piece of art. If I had to say, I'd say no, as it is just a simple fulfillment of a fan's request to own a small sample of the artist's talent.(tbc) about 11 years ago

benpierce25 v (tbc)..Art is in the eye of the beholder, but putting something that Gary did in 5 minutes compared to 5 hours and giving it the same name is not giving respect to the 5 hour piece if they are both being called art. it's a slippery slope and is Keegan's call on how he runs his site. about 11 years ago

keegan a We had a discussion about this before. My main feeling boiled down to would an artist put it on their own site portfolio? An artist who paints, or customizes ... would they include a pencil sketch for a friend or a doodled munny in their own portfolio on their site? If not than it probably doesn't belong in the library. about 11 years ago

keegan a I'm still on the fence about the art hustle cards though, but I do feel con sketches, just like doodled toys don't really belong in the site. Can you imagine scrolling through 1000's of white sketched munnys from various cons? *shudders* about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v So then it's time? Art is defined by the length of time it took to create? Talk about a slippery slope! Where is the field when entering an item that asks the duration of production? That's a pretty thin definition of what art is. about 11 years ago

benpierce25 v I vote we run the beta test on Toypinionated and see how it goes over. about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v Beta test of what? What are you talking about? about 11 years ago

keegan a yeah, I'm confused by that as well about 11 years ago

keegan a I assume he means try putting in some AH cards and see how it goes which I'm interested in trying. Both original pieces and the printed cards. My only concern would be getting nice images of them all for each series. Thoughts? about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v I'm not even suggesting putting in the regular cards, just the originals. I do see both sides of it, I really do, I just think (and I'm making an assumption as to the purpose of a site LIKE this one, so I apologize in advance) that on a site that is home to rabid collectors and fans, I would think it invaluable to have any scrap of work an artist has done cataloged and available to see. about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v Thank you for providing your perspective! about 11 years ago

QuailStudio v you are welcome Matthew, I hope it helps (^__^) about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v I think AH 1 and 2 SHOULD be in. The original art cards, anyway . But I think you're limiting it too far if you're saying something has to have been in a gallery or show or event (which, by the way, a sketch from SDCC or DCON would then qualify having been at an event). By those limits no commissions would be included and I really don't think that's okay. about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v 1/1 art is 1/1 art and I really don't see any difference between something an artist friend does for you vs something you paid a crap-ton for at a gallery. about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v It's also dangerous to say "that it is only a shell of what the artist is capable." Couldn't that be said, as judgement, about every piece an artist does that you don't like? Oh that could have been so much better. What matters is the intent. It's art. No, a sketch isn't the same as a long involved painting, but it isn't supposed to, is it? about 11 years ago

benpierce25 v then where does the slippery slope end? what would your ruling be on artist cards that are included in custom blind box series be? I think it goes back to a 5 minute vs a 5 hour being called art vilifies one and admonishes the other. If keegan wanted to make a fan art section and let people go nuts, it may sooth some of this grey area. about 11 years ago

benpierce25 v I think the biggest thing comes down to that if everyone posted a sketch they got, it clutters the site and dilutes it. Say we have Huck Gee, he goes to a signing, 10,000 people get a sketch and 10,000 people upload their sketch all being approximately being the same. Would you like to wade through that in order to look at a figure? about 11 years ago

benpierce25 v And if Keegan allows sketches but only allows those that are different, how do you choose whose to keep as the token sketch. The part you may not know Matt is that from the database side, it would be a nightmare to allow sketches, each having their own family/folder. Like if you create a folder for your sketch when you met Gary Ham on the street or at a cafe or in the bathroom, each one would be a unique instance. about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v First off, those 10,000 people aren't going to add their sketches. Hasn't happened yet so to use that as an argument against something is stretching it more than a bit. And if an art card that came in a blind box was an original piece of art (like often comes with APs) then why not? I genuinely see no difference between that and a piece hanging in a gallery. Size doesn't mean anything (teehee). about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v And if you don't like those then I guess we shouldn't allow prints that come with releases either such as those that Nathan Hamill has released with his various figures. And what about the mini prints that came with the original SDCC release of the Bunny Go Ride figure? To worry about cluttering the library up seems a strange concern. You generally only see what you search for anyway. about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v Do you think there are many people who click Library then spend the next 27 hours clicking through each page? No, they search for the artist of the piece they have, and then they go on to the next. Sure there is some browsing but even then about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v I'd bet a good chunk of it is searches for Kozik (or whatever) and in that case I would LOVE to see everything possible that he's done. It is a Library after all and that's what Libraries are. Not a curated museum. about 11 years ago

benpierce25 v Actually, people have tried to add sketches in the past and they get taken down since that is one of the No-no's of trampt "Thou shalt not upload sketches or sketched figures". Prints are produced which makes them valid. I don't see nathan sitting at a table with a stencil and paint doing them. They are made, conceived, and provided at an event, whether it be a CON or TAG for Nathan's items. about 11 years ago

benpierce25 v If keegan wants to add a sketch tab for each artist, then let's hoot the moon. about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v Ok, so lets go at it this way then. What is a sketch? How do YOU specifically define it? Is it something done with a pencil only? Would you then not allow any work by PodgyPanda in here? Or is it size? Define this slippery slope for me. about 11 years ago

benpierce25 v I guess I will answer in order posed: To me a sketch can be done in pen/pencil, as an item of appreciation to a fan for their support. complexity is not a factor. But art is what is for sale/profit, a sketch is to make you feel warm, fuzzy, special, and to get off their back. It is a token of their appreciation, which would not have value, and not first a gallery definition of art. about 11 years ago

benpierce25 v The slippery slope is: AH series, suck series, and even Topps Star Wars if we venture there just has too many random people. To me, if it is Nathan or someone in our community, kudos, but items for Star wars cards are art but these folks have no involvement and would likely only have 1 item to their unverified portfolio. about 11 years ago

benpierce25 v everyone deserves notoriety for their contribution to the scene, and thus they have been given a trading card (or have a following of fans) since one does not necessarily imply the other. But if I were an artist, I would only want to see what I put my whole ass in to and not just a fraction of it. about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v wow, that is a pretty dangerous definition. I guess you're telling all the graffiti writers that what they do isn't art then either since they can't sell it and it isn't for profit? I mean, I agree but only because i'm not a fan of graffiti but I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that it is free art. And that's also a pretty cynical and condescending look at what a sketch is or what it's purpose is. about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v So lets take the sketches done by the various artists during the last Day With Toy Break. Those were, by any real definition, sketches but they were done to raise donations. Do those count to you? Do those qualify as art? See, I think the only slippery slope here is your own. You're limiting what art is like crazy and for no useful purpose. about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v ok about 11 years ago

benpierce25 v That's like asking if working at a soup kitchen can be counted as write off on your W2 since you donated your time, and your time is worth money. They did it out of the goodness of their heart to help someone, which points back around to what I view the definition of a sketch to be. Just because you have your own toypinion doesn't give you grounds to deride mine (in your last sentence). about 11 years ago

keegan a Graffiti is art, but it can't be collected so it's not here. There are plenty of pieces of original art on the site done in pencil, and some are sketches of painting for a show ... the key difference is those were sold at the same show. There are no hard and fast rules except ... can it be physically 'obtained', and would the artist generally be proud to show that piece as their 'work'. about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v Perhaps re-read that sentence. You're limiting something like crazy. not you are crazy. And I don't see a useful purpose to limit it to that degree. That's a simple disagreement. about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v Keegan, i wasn't suggesting graffiti should be here. I'm simply using that as a counter example to why the cost of something is irrelevant to whether or not it is art. No, photographs of graffiti shouldn't be here :-) about 11 years ago

sawdustbear v I think y'all are working on defining the wrong term here - the word "art" isn't going to end up being defined conclusively on this site or any other. What's more important is that each artist has a "portfolio" on the site - it's supposed to be the best of their work. Not a comprehensive body of work, just the portfolio-worthy ones. about 11 years ago

sawdustbear v I'm fine with limiting the scope of an artist portfolio to their own releases, as well as gallery and event releases. I also like the idea of having a "sketches" area that can be a lot more comprehensive. about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v I think the real problem is that I am coming at this from a different perspective than it seems like everyone else. I am seeing the term Library used and then think this should act as a Library, like the title suggests. You're all seeing this as a site made up of a bunch of portfolios. Very, very different beasts. about 11 years ago

keegan a I stand by this ... do you disagree? My main feeling boiled down to would an artist put it on their own site portfolio? An artist who paints, or customizes ... would they include a pencil sketch for a friend or a doodled munny in their own portfolio on their site? If not than it probably doesn't belong in the library. about 11 years ago

ToyPinionated v I think where I get hung up on this is the terminology this site uses. You are conflating a library with a portfolio. If it is a library than it should have everything possible an artist has done. Now, the artists' portfolio typically only houses their most ideal examples of their work. Two very, very different things but this site combines them in a way that is making this discussion much more difficult. about 11 years ago